Shipping and AO3

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

I wrote up something here in response to The Niche which was based on this on tumblr.

Feel free to respond here or there. Thought we could use a conversation starter.

Comments

[schneefink]

I started reading the Niche article and the first response to a pairing was not to comment on the character/relationship dynamics but to note that it would be so much better if they had a boyfriend the same age, and that's where I realized that this article is really not for me. I get way too annoyed at people judging others for their shipping preferences.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

I chose to ignore the comparatively mild (tumblr is a trip but it also gives me pictures of my emotional support characters) critique of 'inappropriate pairings'. I noticed that Rupert Giles/Buffy didn't breech the tally needed for the list. My version doesn't engage with the yuck the yum aspects.

[chelseagirl]

Reading this and still feeling very much the fandom outsider for my interest in female characters, whether in f/f f/m or gen relationships . . .

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

It just means they aren't juggernauts. I do try to get more women into my versions of the MCU.

I have gotten a bit stymied populating my Stargate MCU fusion, because I want a mostly female hard sciences team. So, if you've wanted to pitch source, introduce me to more women of science fiction.

[chelseagirl]

I just mean Carol and Peggy and Jessica and etc. Characters who seem to be beloved but never really breach the heights of fandom popularity. Enough folks write them that I have stories to read, and when I write them I get responses, so it's all good. But what I consider a massively popular story is apparently a tiny fraction of the kudos for some of the juggernaut pairings -- something I never really think about until one of those "your most popular story" memes makes the rounds of my flist, and then I'm startled at the contrast.

[This isn't meant to be a sulk; my first book came out this summer and I'm putting my writing energies elsewhere for the most part. It's just an observation that the M/Ms dominate the charts so very obviously, which isn't necessarily what I see as I seek out the stories that interest me as a reader.]

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Ah! Well, this is one of those places where statistics answer a question possibly different than the one asked. You almost need to skim off the juggernauts (which are for many Reasons going to lean White Men either representationally or characterwise) to see what else is going on.

W00T on your Book!

Peggy is operating in that valley of Research Needed, Source Misuse and Thankless Job. Which is to say one has to be Ginger Rogers to write her. ;) Unless one gives her a cameo, which I did because I had Issues with how the Russos managed her in The Winter Soldier and source has only escalated since then.

[chelseagirl]

Thanks re. the WOOT! It's pretty giddy-making exciting. Now, of course, the thing is to write the next one.

I was more of an Agent Carter fan than I was a MCU fan, and I have an even 10 Peggy stories on AO3 at the moment, all tied to the series. So my perspective on that closing dance in Endgame was "well, that's nice, except two seasons of Peggy getting on with her life postwar is now kind of moot, isn't it?" (From an emotional standpoint, even if she still goes on to direct SHIELD.) But a popular Agent Carter story might get 30-40 kudos; I know Stucky and Stony get a lot more than that . . . .

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Mouth to ear.

I've only been able to see the first season of Agent Carter, solely Blu-Ray release of second season...
Thing is, per the Time Travel Theory they used, the Peggy Carter dancing isn't MCU main continuity. She's indistinguishable from Peggy up to the moment Steve interjects himself into her timeline. Just like there's 2012!Loki running about with the Tesseract and 2014!Gamora never met Peter Quill... Because of the Infinity Stones 2014!Gamora is in 2023 MCU and 2012!Loki may appear should it suit Disney, Marvel and/or large suitcases of Lincolns and Hamiltons.

Oh, yeah! Stucky and Stony can rake in kudos and may even get comments. I've got never to be requited mutual past pining in my AU along with rare pair.

I've been trying to ignore all Word of God commentary by the Russos because they keep trying to have their cake and eat it too. Get it on the screen or let it go. Head canons are for fans.

[reinadefuego]

It's kinda the unfortunate downside to there being so few female characters in the source material to begin with, and is pretty representative of AO3 as a slash juggernaut.

[chelseagirl]

Yeah, I mean, I could list a few dozen female characters offhand who interest me a lot, beginning with Carol, Peggy, Jessica, Nat, Buffy, Willow, Scully, Wynonna, etc etc etc. But I do tend to seek out media with significant female representation, with some exceptions.

I find plenty of fic that's female-centered, whether gen, f/f or f/m. AO3 is large enough that there's room for us all. But then in lists like this or in memes or etc, I'm startled by how marginal all of that apparently is.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

I don't really seek out media anymore--I used to watch a lot of tv and then I read a lot. Now, what I do mediawise tends to be predicated on fandom and access. Somethings I might be into will probably be gif set only.

My reaction may give an impression of my view.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

It is true that many sources are short female characters. I think I read that on average (which means some sources are much worse) there is one significant woman to every five men of note.

I was also around for how Samantha Carter was treated- sometimes the reasonable anger towards TPTB got directed at the character or in fact Amanda Tapping, and instead of critiquing the poor writing and directing choices of Canon (I'm staring right at Stalker Peter) fandom leaned into the vexing character beats.

AO3 is a slash juggernaut; many of the older zine fandoms that were het either never made transition to the internet or are still on private archives/author websites. Remington Steele and Scarecrow & Mrs. King are two I've read in, and I've written a little of the first.

In the wake of the excellent acceptance speech of the henceforth Astounding New Writer Award, I think we should examine Why and How we've got the media and fandom landscape that we do. Some of it is works that do have women in better proportions so satisfy their audience writing fanfiction isn't the itch that say The Sentinel was during original broadcast. I've not run any statistics but my gut sense (from mailing lists) is due South fandom produced fewer procedural stories than comparable media. The niggle that sent fans to their keyboards were relationship based, whether that was slash, het, gen, or the elusive femslash.

[chelseagirl]

I was around for the transition from zines to online posting, but my main fandoms then were Forever Knight and Buffy, which were pretty gender balanced and had plenty of het ships as well as slash -- and of course in Buffy, canon f/f.

After that I drifted in and out of fandoms, due to a change of where my energies were focused, and I stayed on LJ, then DW mostly to stay in touch with friends I'd made through fandom. I got back into writing fic through Yuletide maybe five years ago, and perhaps it's not surprising that in the smaller fandoms exchange, I've matched on requests for stories that were f/m or f/f oriented: The Hour, The Bletchley Circle, Halt & Catch Fire.

For whatever that's worth.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Ah! I came in post Perpetual September but frequently am the only non-digital native about.

I watched Forever Knight, but not the episode That Didn't Happen; read about that online. Buffy I only know by osmosis; it was on cable. SG-1 I didn't actually see until sometime after 2005 iirc.

I missed most of LJ, joining them possibly mere months before DW. Besides MCU I've done Wilby Wonderful and a book series and that's pretty much it for 21st century fandoms.

[feurioo]

That Tumblr also posted the shipping stats for 2019.

Glad to see that the usual F/F suspects, but I'm surprised that there doesn't seem to be any Captain Marvel/She-Ra content, to be honest. I don't follow either fandom, but judging from my Tumblr dash, I'd somehow assumed that they were these big fandom juggernauts.


Feeling sentimental over:

- Mulder/Scully: My first REAL OTP! Also my first real fandom. Still remember reading that super clichéd "Mulder and Scully go camping" fic and how it made 11-year-old me swoon.

- Harry Potter/Snape: Not gonna lie, my 12-year-old edgelord self shipped this for a second. However, afterwards, I never really "got" it despite reading some really good fic featuring the two together.


Other thoughts:

- Bond/Q: Knowing nothing about James Bond, little ol' me was super happy to find out that Bond/Q produced so much fic because I somehow assumed that Judi Dench was Q. Was disappointed to learn that she wasn't. There's, fortunately, still some very steamy A+ Bond/M content out there.

- Jack Harkness/Ianto: I only ever heard other people talking about this pairing that sounded really epic until I finally succumbed and watched Torchwood about two years ago. And can I just say... that it was not what I expected? Considering the Jack/Gwen stuff going on, I somehow just felt let down.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

I expect that Carol Danvers is being paired enough ways that the Captain Marvel fic hasn't gotten into the sheer numbers for a list like this. Also, as it was posted in 2017, it predates the movie. Only came out this year.

Moose/Squirrel is right back there. At its best it can have a slash sensibility for being het.

Oh, good, you've found the Bond/M.

I recall hearing about Jack/Ianto and Captain Harkness was cameoing in most every fandom I was reading at one point.

[moetushie]

Not sure what to say about the list from the Niche, which I’ve never heard of before now, except it super doesn’t seem worth reading.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Well, it's probably more interesting for a younger crowd. I noticed that a number of late 20th century pairing made the list but they were new to the essayist.

[megpie71]

Okay, the article on "The Niche" reads like the author was deliberately looking for something to piss them off in pretty much every single one of the ships presented. Which, to be honest, I bounce off good and hard. I'm Australian - if I want manufactured outrage for the sake of outrage, I can read the Murdoch media (or I can read about the manufactured outrage in the Murdoch media in the other 30% of our media environment). This is what we have Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones for, after all.

That said, given it didn't even mention any of the fandoms I write in (which says a lot about the relative obscurity of video games fandom - all of the mentioned fandoms were mainstream media productions which ran over a number of years) I found it all somewhat dull.

(I can go on for hours about various ships in Final Fantasy VII; I'm reasonably good with Final Fantasy VIII and Kingdom Hearts 1 & 2; and I'm starting to bounce off the fandom's favourite ship in Persona 5).

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Looking (very fast, mind you) at the Video Games page on AO3, very few of the fandoms seem to have many fanworks. I didn't take any looks into how the breakdown goes for pairings.

[kalloway]

Oh, I saw that Niche link earlier, clicked through and skimmed a bit til it was blindingly obvious that it was just terrible clickbait. I suppose it's good that it's getting people talking, at least, even if it's mostly about how bad the piece is.

(I'd be tempted to write a response, too, but it's a waste of energy when I only know most of the canons/characters thru osmosis.)